Curse

Horace The Great · Oct 07, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I heard alot of complains about spirit way, and that it's to overpowered. I think it is not overpower (could have some skill changes though) but overplayed.

Let's me explain how i kill this with the other overplayed build: lego

Spirits
A mesmer with Unnatarul Signet taking down spirits. I use aura of stability on my paragon instead of brace yourself, he keeps this skill on the mesmer so he cannot be knockdownd while using the signet. So now you took down the ranger spirits.
The Rt spirits are not so important to kill but its hard to heal for them without spirits. So what I do as warrior is build up on spirits.

Trappers
Trappers are not so hard to counter, you have two paragons attacking trappers all the time so they will get interupted. Ofcourse sometimes some of the spiritways have counters against that, but you can counter this aswell. Counter of them can be: weapon of warding, trappers focus, weapon of shadow. This is a bit harder to counter but it can be done. Weapon of warding only had 50% chance. Trappers focus, they don't have an elite trap so does not matter much. Weapon of shadow is the one that is annoying, you will have to try and divert it or interupt it. But most teams don't have this skill or only have 1.

Thumpers
Thumpers cannot kill fast and cannot deal alot of damage it is only the dazed that matters. So, we have a water ele to snare them, monks can kite better this way. Then we have aura of stability on the RC who keeps it on the LoD. If the RC gets dazed we draw it from the LoD and the RC removes it on the LoD, all simple things.
Also a fun thing to do is kill their pets and then put a Diversion on the ranger so he divert his Comfort Animal, but thats not really needed.

Order of Apostasy
This is a very good skill and will pressure your monks alot or even kill them. So it's very important this skill is interupted. The mesmer can do this since he has 2 other interupts most of the time (power drain and power leak, lock, spike, when he interupt not with PD he can still use his signet). The mesmer keeps spamming signet on spirits but will watch the order necro to interupt.

Spikes
The spikes are easy, I use a shock warrior. I shock a N/Rt and then spike, Eviscerate -> Excute -> Agonizing. They only have one healer to heal your spike now. When he isnt dead when he gets up he will try to heal himself, this will get interupted but Agonizing.

So: keep spirits down, thumpers snared, order down and then do some good spikes.

This is how you win vs an normal spiritway.

Alot of people would already know this but some not. You need a mesmer who can watch more then 1-2 targets at the time. This is possible but not easy.

I made this thread a bit fast so its maybe not in perfect english, hope you like it

. Hope we have some good discussion here.

Avarre · Oct 07, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Your points are all pretty much exact to what we did over the weekend (had generally good success against spiritway). Another thing we used were Paragons with Holy Spear: they can pretty much tear apart clumps of spirits (and nearby players) as well.

With spirits down and trappers being shut down as well as possible, continual spikes rip through their healing fairly well.

Horace The Great · Oct 07, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Paragons with Holy Spear

Used that aswell.

Theli · Oct 07, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

defeating spiritway is very easy.
For this weekend we started to run a paraspike first, and no spiritway beat us.
But Capture points was a little dificult, so we started to run balanced.

1 W/P with song of concentration.
1 Me PD,Diversion,Unnatural Signet
1 E/Me Savanah + more AoE, Flame Djiin, Hex Breaker
1 E/Rit Shatterstone, Maelstrom, + Snares
1 N/E Corrupt Ench, Vocal of Minority + Well Of Silence + More Hexes
1 N/E Tainted Rotting, putrind and rising bile, Well Of Suffering + Ward Of Stability
1 Mo/Me RC with Aura of Stability
1 Lod/infuse

Against Spirit Way
Step 1: Destroy Spirits, and interrupt Traps..
Step 2: Kill trappers lots of times and the hard rez.
Step 3: Kill Others
Step 4: /Rank Emote LOL

Basicaly is same tactics on every balance, kill spirits and trappers always..
like old IWAY with resolve trapper..same kill trapper, kill trapper, kill trapper, kill trapper, kill trapper, kill trapper, kill trapper.

And remember..KILL TRAPPERS

KILL TRAPPERS

Snow Bunny · Oct 07, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Give your monks spears.

A good monk should be able to toss spears at a trapper and disrupt them while taking note of the RaO in his face while making red bars go up/not go down.

Give your eles spears too.
Just give everyone spears.

Spears can provide a decent amount of disruption on the trappers.

Horace The Great · Oct 07, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

With a build that has 2 paragons you can easy control the trappers so you can better spike the N/Rt's first so you win fast. If you control a character he is not the first to kill. Of course other things then paragons can control a trapper aswell.

moko · Oct 07, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Give your monks spears.

A good monk should be able to toss spears at a trapper and disrupt them while taking note of the RaO in his face while making red bars go up/not go down.

Give your eles spears too.
Just give everyone spears.

Spears can provide a decent amount of disruption on the trappers.

let's all spearspike with a rao on our butt.

i agree.

really, i do.

not.

his idea is the right one but you value it way too high. you would wand a trapper instead of kiting? do you know how much DPS raos will create when you stand still on wand?

if you have nothing to do, yes, wand trappers, if not, DONT.

Horace The Great · Oct 07, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

let's all spearspike with a rao on our butt.

i agree.

really, i do.

not.

his idea is the right one but you value it way too high. you would wand a trapper instead of kiting? do you know how much DPS raos will create when you stand still on wand?

if you have nothing to do, yes, wand trappers, if not, DONT.

agree, everyone can help but only when they are doing nothing else.

swift88 · Oct 08, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

simplest answer to beating spiritway is to simply outpressure them before they get their degen/traps going. the flaw of spiritway is that even if they might have flesh of my flesh, chances are they won't last long once you break their back bone.

Horace The Great · Oct 08, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by swift88

simplest answer to beating spiritway is to simply outpressure them before they get their degen/traps going. the flaw of spiritway is that even if they might have flesh of my flesh, chances are they won't last long once you break their back bone.

That's a fast way to win, but with no/lesser control if the pressure isn't working somehow you lose.

Kyp Jade · Oct 08, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Depends which varient of spiritway they are using.

4 thumpers
2 trappers
2 n/rts (why these havent been nerfed to hell and back I dont know)

disrupt trappers
Own OoA N.
D-shot OoA.
Kill things.

elektra_lucia · Oct 08, 2007, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Weekend wasn't too much fame for me but I'm not too bothered as I guess it keeps my fame clean as possible =D. I think spiritway was really abused during the event, it's not that hard to counter. The biggest thing of all is just using your brain?

I would say that the build is over powered for the amount of effort put in, and that was the thing about IWAY Both builds are easily countered but for effort they are good.

It is in the games code to allow x amount of skills on the bar. For an example of what I'm talking about PVE skills or an elite skill. I believe that the solution to defeating this build would be to forbid you from using too many of the secondary professions skills. This would not effect any normal type of play, but necro's with infinite energy, it will. Then you can continue to have good soul reaping.

Another way and I'll exaggerate it (I can not think of what would be best) instead of allowing 12 in the attributes, allowing it to go up to 2 on a secondary profession. I don't know if 8, 9, 10 would ruin it, or do nothing. This idea was kinda half thought out and it might completely fail.

Sorry if I have not contributed to countering it exactly, but I think that people as a whole make FAR too many mistakes, regardless of what the build is. The whole thing of losing vs these teams is a general thing too, my point:

Interrupt. Whatever the most powerful skill is that is going to hurt you, interrupt it. It's not just that interrupting helps the team, it's actually fun to play? I can't stand bars of just mashing the buttons.

Positioning. So you may not wand a trap, then don't stand in it? If you can not see savannah heat, a trap being casted, or something else. You aren't reacting fast enough.

Positioning of wards. It's easy to mess up if you lag and cast, only to find ward is not where you thought it was, but for the people that constantly put wards in a wall, or under a bridge. Why? Just why. Sometimes this can even be because the team can't decide whether to push in or fall back, so they end up stuck in the middle but for the majority of the time it's someone making a mistake that I don't personally understand yet (I guess I'll know one day why they do it).

Horace The Great · Oct 08, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I believe that the solution to defeating this build would be to forbid you from using too many of the secondary professions skills. This would not effect any normal type of play, but necro's with infinite energy, it will. Then you can continue to have good soul reaping.

I like that idea very much

Melody Cross · Oct 08, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Sway: I did sway during the event for a little while. They were the easiest PuGs to get into and it doesn't require vent for a quick run. I've IWAYed too; sue me. The teams that shut down the rit were the most successful against us. PD mesmers were a constant headache to spirit casting (I know its sway but I wont spam. I place strategically so one AoE doesn't eat my bar).

Killing EW is also an excellent form of shutdown for the rit primary. They have little on their bar that they can cast then except splinter and warmonger weapon spells, and necros tend to spam WoR and Vengeful so conditions and pressure applied to the frontline rangers tends to strip these more powerful skills off, further negating this teams "midline". Look for the R/D: he'll have warmongers in a good team.

Shutting down spirits through AoE is alright when there is no other option, but keeping them out of play is better. The necros get less energy and the teams prot becomes non-existent. So the spirit loaded ritualist primary is a soft sport in this teams defense.

Now that I've destroyed all my credibility, I'd like to move back to something interesting:monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Give your monks spears.

A good monk should be able to toss spears at a trapper and disrupt them while taking note of the RaO in his face while making red bars go up/not go down.

Give your eles spears too.
Just give everyone spears.

Spears can provide a decent amount of disruption on the trappers.

This is something I see called for a lot in HA. I don't wand well, but I don't consider that a failure on my part. I tend to spend any time that I am not casting running around to reposition myself so i am not a static target for players to hit. I've been chewed out in vent for it--had one PuG member /rant the backline for a good minute in vent after a loss to Sway and ragequit over it--and get constant whispers and team texts about how I need to be doing this. before I consider the option seriously, I want 1 player with a guild tag I recognize to endorse monks wanding trappers in a 2-monk line. I'm not talking about wanding pre-clash. Before the teams actually attack one another, its quite easy to find and wand--or longbow--a trapper. But once things get busy, I want to kite away from the RoA. I want to be an annoying/difficult target to gain adrenaline on so the melee players will be more willing to get off me and move to something else...and I tend to prefer teams of casters that feel that way too.

It seems to me, the best defense against trappers is not to fight in traps. Monks aren't the only players who should be watching the field of play. Don't targetlock on what you're killing so much that you ignore someone kneeling down next to you and this might not be such a problem. You've got a better chance of seeing them anyway: they're right next to you...

On kiting: I have gotten flamed for this as well, so I would appreciate some feedback. In 8v8 HA, I might channeltank some, but except for priest maps, I tend to spend most of my time circling the fight, not bobbing back and forth. Its not like GvG where we had a defined start and end point. Where we leave from is of no importance once the ball starts (think Ender's Game if you've ever read that book). There's no flag runner I might need to run back to prot or a base for me to fall back on. it just makes little sense to me to anchor my frontline to myself. By freeing up my own mobility, I give them greater flexibility. I can still kite away from a fight by increasing the size of my circle and "retreating" toward my duo. Since most balls and alterfights are confined to spellcaster range, I don't see an issue with this...but many other players have.

Suggestions for HA placement strategies are appreciated. I've still a lot to learn.

GGs

Phoenixx · Oct 08, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

>Thumpers cannot kill fast and cannot deal alot of damage
lol... go hit the new dummy in isle of nameless, thumper = 50% more damage than any derv, warrior or paragon

Cammy · Oct 08, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

I know we're talking balanced. But zergway really does well against spiritway. Pets go in, set off all the traps, paragons keep trappers pinned, mass e-denial from fear me, defensive anthem for the thumpers.

Kyp Jade · Oct 08, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

@ Melody Cross

I do ask my monks to wand trapper, specifically I ask my LoD monk to wand trappers since against Sway all the lod should really need to do if your prot monks are doing thier job is to cast LoD every now and then

But I run 3 monk backlines, 3 monk lines are more difficult to disrupt are overall more flexible. And legoway uses DA anyway which is imba and needs to die.

Snow Bunny · Oct 08, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

let's all spearspike with a rao on our butt.

i agree.

really, i do.

not.

his idea is the right one but you value it way too high. you would wand a trapper instead of kiting? do you know how much DPS raos will create when you stand still on wand?

if you have nothing to do, yes, wand trappers, if not, DONT.

Lol...I was just making an exaggeration.

It's true, kiting is crucial.
But if you're the LoD or really don't have much to do, disrupting the smoke trapper is pretty useful. :P

pah01 · Oct 09, 2007, 06:11 AM // 06:11

In a two monk backline you will be kiting a thumper almost all the time. The midline are the ones shutting down trappers.

IMO monks wanding trappers is a good idea only if you can, which is seldom.

Joe

ksalanpang · Oct 09, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Kill spirits, wild blow trapper!!! like ol school, jk.... Interrupts and linebacks would be the key. Thumpers and their fellow pets love extending just to thump monks. Kill them when they're like "I will avenge monk!".

Quite frankly you've to mod the balanced build a little in order to beat them without getting pressured. I'm no expert but our guild don't like changing builds. So i guess that's gg...

Not sure why thumper is giving everybody such a bad impression ever since spiritways were formed. I mean thumper is just a build. It gives good pressure. It has nothing to do with whether the player is nub or not. I swear I play thumpers with my ranger in pve 90% of the time.

All I'm trying to say is, if spiritway is giving ppl bad impression so does other standard balanced build (2 DA para or Legoway). Why ppl don't hate that build as much early this year. That's just an example. The bottom line is, it's just a build. It can be beaten. If you fail to beat them, don't hate the meta; hate yourself or your team.

And yes I hate teams/guilds only run 'one and only' build in pvp (especially HA). It's like 'there's only one choice in this world, if we don't play this build again we're gonna die!'. It's boring as hell when you HA with 7 other guys playing the same role, same characters, same bars. I'm tired of HA just because my guild here running the same balanced build every night. I'm sure some of you have the same feeling from time to time.

I'm pretty much a retired pvper. Wanted to excel but got no connection with gvgers after the original cores quit game from ex-guild.

Well sry for not totally in topic. The reasoning again why people run the same meta build is because they want to farm fame. Until everyone figures out an easy way to beat them another meta will come.